Ep. 89: Spinster and The Forty-Year-Old Version: Coming of age at forty

Alex Heeney

Welcome to the Seventh Row podcast, a weekly podcast in which we compare and contrast films to discover new insights and context for films both new and old. I'm your host Alex Heeney, editor-in-chief of Seventh Row. Seventh Row is a nonprofit online film criticism, publication and publishing house dedicated to helping you discover the best under the radar, female directed and foreign films. We want to help you think deeply about why and how great films make you feel the way they do. If you liked this podcast, consider becoming a film adventure. Remember, as a film adventurer, you'll receive weekly streaming recommendations by email, discounts on our merchandise and books, access to our back catalogue of podcasts episodes, and a free ebook. As soon as you make your purchase visit seven-row.com/join to find out more that's seventh-row.com/slash. Soon, all episodes more than six months old will only be available to our members. As a member, you'll receive a personalized premium feed of all of our episodes, and you can still listen to it from your favorite pod catcher

Orla Smith

So just before we get on with the episode, we wanted to let you know that we have a new book out, which is super exciting. Our latest ebook is called In their own words: fiction directors. It is unlike any ebook that we've ever made before, I'd say usually our ebooks focus on one theme or one filmmaker. And this is a book about filmmaking in general. Basically what we did is we went back through like the entire history of seven throw all the interviews with directors that we've ever done. And we pick the 70 plus best ones, we arrange them into nine different sections, including like working in different genres shooting post production, film versus theater, a bunch of others. And within each section there are questions so in like the section on devising and aesthetic questions include, how do you visualize memory on screen? Do you prefer to shoot on film or digital? How do you choose an aspect ratio? And within each question, you can find answers pulled from those 70 interviews for different directors so under do you prefer to shoot on film or digital? You can read six different filmmakers talking about their opinion on that question, which often those opinions vary wildly, but they're always incredibly well reasoned. And it's fascinating to kind of read them side by side. So you've got established filmmakers like Mike Lee, you have the words like Terence Davies you have sort of like beloved contemporary artists like Céline Sciamma, Kelly Reichardt. So you have people who've just made that first feature like Quinn Armstrong, you have the recently Oscar nominated Chloé Zhao. And yeah, it's a really fascinating book I think for if you're a film fan, I think reading it is going to help you understand the craft of cinema better, it will change the way you watch films, if you're a filmmaker, it's really vital resource. I make films myself, and I think that when I work on a project, I'm going to refer back to this book, if I'm stuck on a particular part of the creative process, I'm going to flip to a section of the book that's relevant to it and you know, get advice from the best. And for anyone, I think it's a vital way to discover like your next favorite filmmaker, if you'd like their insights. So we did a whole episode on this a couple episodes back on in their own words, fiction directors were the editors of the book kind of chat about what it's all about, and how he put it together. And if you want to go ahead and order it, you can just go to their own words.ca.

Alex Heeney

On the podcast today we are going to be talking about two films about women approaching 40. One is The 40 Year Old Version, which is on Netflix worldwide. And the other is the Canadian film Spinster by Andrea Dorfman. And for this discussion we have with us our contributing editor, Lindsey Pugh.

Lindsay Pugh

Hello, hello,

Alex Heeney

and our executive editor Orla Smith.

Orla Smith

Hello.

Alex Heeney

So before we get going on our discussion, we just have a few announcements.

Unknown Speaker

So this is the part of the podcast where we would be reading out reviews if we had any that we don't so if you want your words to be read out by me or by someone else, next week, you can do so by just leaving a quick review on Apple podcasts a five star review please. And we would be so so delighted because it always makes our week when we get reviews. So do that now and or at the end of the episode or tell us what you thought of it and I read it out next week

Alex Heeney

And if you end up liking this episode, the related episode we suggest you look back for is the episode on Kris Rey's 30 somethings, which is about her films I Used to Go Here and Unexpected, which also deal with women in their 30s.

Unknown Speaker

And we also talked a tiny bit about Spinster int that one too, that we felt we needed a full episode to fully explore it. And I feel like another film that was sort of in this vein of like looking at sort of single childless 30 something women from last year was St. Francis. And we did an episode on abortion on screen too, that heavily discussed that film so that Lindsay was a guest on that do. So you could go back and listen to that as well.

Unknown Speaker

Orla, this was your idea, which I think was a really good one. So I'm wondering if you want to tell us why we paired these two together?

Unknown Speaker

Yeah, as we talked about, in the announcements section, there were four films last year that I felt fell into this sort of unique categorization of like coming of age in your 30s films, and which felt like something I hadn't seen very much before in films. And then suddenly, we got four of them all in one year. So those films, St. Francis, and I Used to Go Here, which both women sort of in their mid 30s, I'd say early to mid 30s, and Spinster and The 40 Year Old Version, which looked at women who were specifically like in the year leading up to their 40th birthday, and all four main characters are, at least start the film, single and childless. And all of them are dealing with sort of career uncertainty. And it felt like it's so rare to see films that sort of portray women who haven't like got their shit together in their 30s, or in like approaching their 40s. And the films also, like in a lot of cases, don't even reassure you with like an ending that's like, oh, but now they've found someone or like, now they know what they're going to do with their career. I think a lot of these films have like really satisfying the ambiguous endings that kind of tells their audiences that it's okay to sort of not know, like exactly where they're going to go next. Because like, you know, your life isn't over at forty, you don't have to have like everything sort of like wrapped up in a bow. And specifically Spinster, and The 40 Year Old Version, which we hadn't discussed on the podcast before very much have a lot of parallels, like their characters are dealing with a lot of the similar kind of problems. And even though they're in very different contexts, and they're both, as we said, like the same age and worrying about like turning 40 soon, and what they want to have done with their life by the time they reach that milestone. So yeah, and we're huge fans of both films, they were both on our best of best of 2020 list last year.

Unknown Speaker

Yeah. And I think they're also both kind of looking at unconventional paths. Like, I feel like both films are about them, realizing that the conventional thing that women their age might do is not necessarily for them, and coming to terms with what that means and where do they go from here, whether that's like, okay, Broadway is not open enough for my critiques of white culture. And or just my authentic look at Black people. Versus, you know, maybe getting married and having children is not what is going to make me happy right now.

Orla Smith

And a little plug is that because these like ideas I've been thinking about the whole of last year with these sort of films, and I wrote a piece in March, April, I don't know what time is anymore, for Girls on Tops about the coming of age in your 30s trend with those four films. So I've been thinking about it a lot recently, as well and revisited all four of those films and these two specifically and it Yeah, it's been lovely to watch them and I feel like like the fact that they like all exist at once is like very heartening to me.

Alex Heeney

Yeah, like these kinds of films did not exist 10 years ago

Lindsay Pugh

And as someone who is in her 30s now and has no idea what she's doing, it's very nice to see some representation on screen in this way. Because so many films are traditionalist in the sense of marriage and kids and or career and these are definitely not that and will not make you feel bad for choosing something different.

Alex Heeney

Oh, and also speaking of hot messes at age 30 are in their 30s I guess we should plug our episode on Justine Triet's films

Lindsay Pugh

so good.

Orla Smith

Yeah. A bit the wackier than these

Alex Heeney

do these women get their shit together by the end? Questionable

Unknown Speaker

I was thinking it was just like with regarding to these films. I was thinking about how like, you know, I feel like the way I put it is that they like undo a kind of societal gaslighting like society like both of these characters in these films are sort of like dealing with the fact that there's a certain thing that the world quote unquote, like expects them to have done at the age that they're at. And they're like struggling to do that and realizing that maybe they don't want to do that. And the fact that these four films exists, sort of like helps to undo in the real world, like the fact that those expectations I mean, they're a small step. But even though like these like comedy films, and they might be seen as frivolous, I think they're like, quote, unquote, important in their own way.

Alex Heeney

I think Sybel, Justine Triet's latest film kind of fits into that category. I mean, she's, she has issues unlike, but

Orla Smith

no one wants to be no one wants to be that much of a mess.

Alex Heeney

No.

Unknown Speaker

I wouldn't exactly call Cybil aspirational. No, I do. I do, like enjoy the fact that she exists

Alex Heeney

Well she's interesting, because like, she kind of has her shit together with her career. And then she decides to blow it up. And she sort of has her shit together with her family. But then she kind of blows that up too. And it's just like subverts ideas about like, in a way, she sort of has the happy ending in the beginning, and she just isn't happy with it. And so then the film is her blowing that up, and then putting the pieces back together.

Lindsay Pugh

And we kind of see that in these films, too. When Radha and Gabby, the protagonists of the films were talking about where they tried to sort of do the thing that society wants them to do, and it doesn't make them happy. And it doesn't work out how it's meant to.

Alex Heeney

Yeah,

Unknown Speaker

so I guess we're going to talk about briefly about both films separately, to put them into some context and then move to talking about them together.

Alex Heeney

Alright, so we'll start with the 40 year old version. Here's the trailer.

Orla Smith

So the 40 year old version which is written by directed by and starring Radha Blank follows New York playwright Radha Blank, playing a version of herself. And Radha is approaching 40 and kind of grappling with what she perceived as a lack of success. 10 years on from winning a 30 under 30 Award, she hasn't seen a new play since and she's teaching a group of high school kids in order to pay the bills. She's faced with the choice to keep her new play in workshop purgatory at a small Black owned theater, or to quote unquote sell out by working with big Broadway producer Jay Whitman, who is played by Reed Birney, who will get her work staged but will force her to sanitize it for white audiences. Meanwhile, frustrated by industry gatekeepers Rada wonders if she should just drop playwriting altogether and become a rapper.

Alex Heeney

So I feel like we should say that this is a first film and that Radha, I mean, as you said, She's a multi hyphenate not just in her film but in like, she plays the version of herself. She wrote the film, she directed it. It's her first feature. It came out of nowhere at Sundance and was a big hit.

Orla Smith

And it's very much sort of semi autobiographical. She was or perhaps still is question mark, a playwright. And I imagine has gone through a lot of the same struggles as a character in the film. Yeah, I wanted to go on a round table and ask like, what do we like about this film? I could start. Because I mean, I watched it in October and heard some good things again, like it was hit at Sundance, but I sort of like, you know, I didn't expect to love it as much as I did. Because Sundance comedy is always sort of like a dubious proposition. Often, they're not actually that funny, or dramatically interesting. Eg like, this year, we had, like the big Sundance comedy breakout was On The Count of Three, which hasn't been released yet. But I was not a big fan of. Whereas I thought this film was like, so kind of, it's two hours long, but I found like, totally gripping it's packed with so much stuff. And it's always like, exciting to see a debut that that's like that ambitious with, like, so many ideas, because I feel like a lot of films, like Sundance have one idea. And it still has like many ideas, arguably too many, but I felt like she balanced it like quite well, especially for someone who hadn't directed before. And

Alex Heeney

better to be over stuff that under stuffed.

Orla Smith

Yeah, absolutely. And I really admired the film sort of like balance of tones and characters and plot threads like this is a character with a lot going on in her life. And I also from the plot synopsis, I expected like it to be kind of like a cringe comedy about like, oh, this, you know, this, like, 40 year old woman shouldn't be rapping. She's having a midlife crisis isn't it so embarrassing that she's doing this and I love the fact that she's actually like really good at it. And actually like that would be sort of like a legitimate artistic path for her to go down. And we don't really like know whether she is gonna go down that way or not. But we're not laughing at her. Her raps are good. And she's talented at it. And it really is like an actual serious minded investigation of like, the different art forms of like playwriting and rap music and which is considered more legitimate versus which one like actually allows artistic agency. And yeah, and I love the way that the film balance like Radha's grief versus her her work in her work in playwriting, her work that pays the bills, like the the financial aspects of like her life as an artist and all her different sort of clashing passions. And yeah, I was just incredibly impressed by it. I entertained by it and found it really funny. And big fan,

Alex Heeney

Lindsay.

Lindsay Pugh

Yeah, I think that maybe what I liked most about it was that it didn't go the route of Radha trying to be a rapper, and it being some big redemption redemption arc for her, you know, approaching 40. I liked that it was a hobby for her that turned into more not because it became necessarily like a thing for financial pursuit or success. But it taught her things about her and helped her get some self confidence back. And it brought a new person into her life, who she found exciting and helped open her eyes to new ways of thinking and feeling. And I just think that that's nice films don't do that a lot. A lot of the time. It's, you know, something that you discover you love. And then there's a whole like race to make it into a career or something more. But it really is kind of a film about how a hobby transforms her life in a way.

Alex Heeney

Like she finds a form of self expression that works for her, like in a way that she can actually do it in a public forum, whether that's going to pay the bills, or whether she's even going to be that successful is not really, like we don't really know, like, is she gonna get a big audience that's any bigger than the workshop theater, where play was going to be like, we don't necessarily know, but it's certainly more satisfying.

Lindsay Pugh

Yeah, exactly. And I like I like to that she's sort of a self centered character.

Alex Heeney

Oh, my God

Lindsay Pugh

So what though. It's great. I want more self centered female characters, because they're fantastic. And I think that they can still be likable, you know, whatever that means, but it was just nice to see it being a story revolving around her and her life and her crises and not that the other people are auxilary because I think some of the other characters are really great, but it is very much Radha's story,

Orla Smith

but I really loved her her relationship with her best friend and I love where that relationship goes. Because like I love that the their happy ending is that they decide that they can't work together. I found that so great like that. They shouldn't be serving each other in every aspect of their life, but they should like find healthy back boundaries. And I don't know, I feel like we don't ever see that in films. But it's so great.

Lindsay Pugh

They are true best friends who really support each other and want the best for each other. And the best friend is not like a throwaway gay best friend character, they have a whole built in history. And it feels very much like a long term realistic friendship.

Orla Smith

I like the fact that he's not serving her, like he really wants to or is he really wants to, like not be filling that role in her life, which she may be being a self centered character isn't thinking about him as much as an independent person as she should be. And then by the end, they kind of get to that place where they're able to sort of like extricate themselves from each other.

Alex Heeney

I mean, I think dramatically, he is that person. And what's good about the film is that it doesn't leave him there. Because at the beginning, there are a lot of scenes and it really pissed me off. Like there are a lot of scenes where they get together. And it's basically like, I need someone to monologue to here is my gay best friend to listen to my monologue, which, and I felt like like he was kind of just like there to be a mirror to her. So I like what you say about the, you know, it's true that what's nice is that the film actually deals with the fact that that happened, as opposed to just be like, yeah, that was totally fine. That was a totally healthy thing. And it's totally cool that she's this self absorbed. And it has no effect on him, because he's not a person.

Lindsay Pugh

Yeah, because the film acknowledges it. That exact takes it to the next level, if it hadn't, it would be like, Oh, this is pretty offensive, but it's to serve a greater purpose.

Alex Heeney

Like sort of the film strength, and its weakness is the lack of like the I think other, the supporting characters are kind of auxiliary. And then they're not very well developed. And the good thing about that is it keeps the focus on her, which means that we get really deep into her professional life in a way that I don't think I've ever seen before. Like just the thing that you're doing for your passion, but the challenge all of the systemic challenges she faces and then the thing that you do to earn the to pay the rent, which can also be surprisingly fulfilling in ways that she didn't expect, because she doesn't really want to be a teacher. And like, it actually deals with the realities of not just oh, I'm hitting 40. And so you know, I should have my life together. But also like, I'm in pain, I'm tired. My period is bothering me, not paying the rent is not is not just like an inconvenience, but is more difficult when I'm 40 than it was when I was 20. And so it really delves deep into a lot of these issues in a way that you wouldn't have time to if it was like, let's give the gay best friend his own, like subplot so that then he can change in a way that affects her. But I guess that's sort of the the flip side of that is that the film is I think the film is kind of overstuffed in a way that I just kind of wish that the supporting characters were a bit more developed, because I don't feel that they have enough of an effect on her like, I feel like she's sort of a fully formed person at the beginning. And then at the end, she's just gotten a bit better at finding the spaces for herself. I don't know that she's really changed. I think I think of this film is very much an external struggle, like it's not really about her discovering who she is so much as just like, okay, the establishment is not going to accept me. So where do I fit in? And how do I still express myself? It doesn't it never questions whether, like, I don't really have an understanding, for example of why she wants to be a playwright. Like for somebody so self absorbed, like, why does she care about 10 different characters?

Orla Smith

I think she does change in the sense that she shifts her priorities. That's like she she changes in the sense that she starts out seeking a more conventional predestined idea of success. Like she got a 30 under 30 Award 10 years before, and that set out kind of like a path of okay, so like, in the next 10 years, you're going to become like a successful playwright. And you're going to do this and this and this, and you have, you know, plays like stage on Broadway or whatever, like, she has this idea set out for herself that she hasn't, like, achieved yet. And she's like, striving for that and panicking because she hasn't gotten there yet. And then by the end of the film, she's sort of she's explored what actually what she actually wants. And she's on her way to sort of pursuing that instead.

Alex Heeney

Yeah, I think she also cares a lot about what other people think of her at the beginning. And she kind of learns to like, I think that's coincidental that you sort of learn to let go that you know that like her students are taunting her about not having her play, you know, seen by anybody.

Orla Smith

And I think it's interesting that you say that you're not sure why she wants to be a playwright because I feel like the character hasn't asked yourself that question either. As much as she should have done, she's we meet her and she's pursuing a track like, and she's like, still trying to be a playwright decades on from like, first deciding to be a playwright. And she's at a point where she's trying to do this thing, but she doesn't know or she hasn't like asked yourself why she's actually doing it. And then the film, she starts to ask yourself those questions, and I don't think she decides, but the film sort of ends. I mean, one of the questions I wanted to ask was like, what does she was at the beginning of the film? And then how does that change by the end, and one of the things I like about it is that by the end of the film, she's decided that she doesn't want to, if she's, you know, saying and playwriting she doesn't want to like, again, quote, unquote, sell out and sanitize her plays, even if it means getting a wide audience. And we know that she enjoys rapping, and she has a relationship with the producer who was working on her music with her, but she hasn't decided what track she's going to go down if she's going to like, do something else entirely. And when we know the real Radha Blank made a film, so yeah, who knows, but like, I think her arc is that she's not asking herself why she wants to do this thing at the beginning. And at the end, she is asking herself,

Unknown Speaker

I think that there's some she has some like establishment mentality to. Maybe playwriting for her is like a more prestigious thing. And part of what her relationship with Dee and her relationship with wrappings sort of shows her is that why is she putting it on a pedestal when there are so many other things that she could discover an embrace that would maybe be better for her creatively.

Alex Heeney

I think there's also something interesting about how her interest in approval maybe shifts, like, I think at the beginning, she wants, you know, she wants approval from the establishment, as you say, but then like, there's that rehearsal scene where she's in the, you know, they've found a director for the play, who's a white lady. And they're rehearsing this scene, and she wants the character to talk in all this, like, extreme dialect and with an accent and as though she, you know, doesn't know big words, and the actress who's playing his character is like, really insulted by the whole thing. And then Radha is embarrassed by that. And so it suddenly becomes it's not just about her selling out, but her sort of like selling out her collaborator who had played the role when it was, you know, in workshop, and before it was going on Broadway with all of these changes that are, you know, like insulting to have to play as an actor. And then similarly, like her producer, pushes her to be more authentic, I guess. And I guess that scene also he overhears that scene. So he hears what he knows what's going on with her play, how that's selling her out. And he sort of calls her out on that. And suddenly it becomes when she realizes that like part of what she's doing is trying to tell Black stories that I think it starts to matter to her more what other Black artists and or Black audiences think of her work that starts to matter more to her than you know, what the white audiences think, who think that, you know, it's the height of progressiveness to have a fully integrated August Wilson play with a multiracial cast.

Orla Smith

I mean, I mean, to explain that, so her play is called Harlem Ave and like, her initial vision for the play, from what I gather is like the story of this Black couple in Harlem who run a shop, and, like gentrification is like a theme in our lives, because it's like a theme in real life. But the play isn't sort of like stressing it in a very obvious way. It's just sort of about their life. And it's quite low key. And when her play is being produced by Jay Whitman, he pushes it towards like, when we need to add violence, and we need a white character who's like, represents the gentrifier. And then we need I mean, she sings in her, she raps about poverty porn, and

Alex Heeney

That's a great, great rap that she does in the film.

Orla Smith

Yeah, she's sharing her frustrations. Whereas when she rapped, she's able to sort of like, actually talk about her real experiences in a way that aren't like, you know, amped up for audience shock value, but just actually real, like she talks about, like having arthritis. And she talks about, like, sexual desire and all sorts of things that are kind of like, mundane, but like interesting because people never talk about them.

Alex Heeney

Yeah, it's taboo for women to have those feelings and express them, especially in mainstream culture.

Orla Smith

So rap is appealing to her because there aren't the same gatekeepers, as there are in theatre where she can either have her authentic play but have it never be staged because there's not enough money or she can like make her play bad and not be proud of it in the end, but get it staged. That's what you like expect from like, I mean, this could have been followed like the sports drama kind of arc or like, like the Eight Mile kind of arc I think she like specifically talked about subverting that in interviews where like, it doesn't really end with like a big triumphant performance. And I mean, when we don't end with the triumphant rap performance, for example, like the last performance we see of hers is like her like completely bombing because she's too high to perform.

Alex Heeney

Oh god that was painful

Orla Smith

She doesn't actually perform publicly after that. And it's sort of not about that it's not about audience validation. And the biggest sort of like, triumphant moment is her like ruining her own play opening by saying, actually, I think this is bad to the audience and then leaving

Alex Heeney

Because it gets like a standing, right. But she's so embarrased by it.

Orla Smith

Yeah. And so actually, the Triumph is us like sabotaging our quote unquote success because to her, even though it's outwardly a success, it's not something she's proud of, or something she wants. Yeah, so I really liked that arc.

Alex Heeney

I think we should mention briefly the sort of satire that goes on about theatre because that is quite funny. Like, I don't know, how much depth there is to it, but it is like pretty biting in in ways that are, you know, you're like, yeah, people should talk. Like this is

Orla Smith

Jay Whitman wants her to to make his to work on his Harriet Tubman musical. And he said they want to do a multiracial revival of Fences.

Alex Heeney

Favorite part?

Unknown Speaker

I think they hired the director because she did an all male Steel Magnolias.

Alex Heeney

Oh, right.

Unknown Speaker

Yeah. And directed Raisin in the Sun.

Alex Heeney

maybe with an all white cast.

Orla Smith

I mean, there's a lot of good just like one line is,

Alex Heeney

yeah.

Orla Smith

Should we move on to Spinster, because we are gonna get back to this film

Alex Heeney

I feel like we've covered the most important things.

Orla Smith

Yeah. And then there's gonna be a lot to talk about with the two in comparison.

Alex Heeney

Okay, so moving on to spinster, here's the trailer.

Orla Smith

In Spinster we make Gabby played by Chelsea Peretti on her 39th birthday and follow her through the following year leading up to her 40th birthday. She lives in Halifax, Nova Scotia, which looks very beautiful in the film

Alex Heeney

It is very beautiful.

Orla Smith

Yes, yes, where she runs her own catering business and Gabby is single and childless. And after breaking up with her short term boyfriend, she feels a pressure, on her 39th birthday they broke up which is very rude of him. She feels the pressure to get back out into the dating game. But after a series of disappointing dates and personal crises force her to reconsider her priorities, she comes to realize that being partnered up is less important to her than strengthening her relationships with her friends and family and achieving her dream to open a small restaurant. So what do we like about this film?

Unknown Speaker

Well, I mean, I really like Chelsea Peretti. I think she's hilarious. And this I wasn't sure about her as a in a leading role. This is the first leading role I've seen her take on and it makes me want to see more with her because she's so good. I also like the relationship between her and her niece, Adele. It's handled really well. And Adele isn't really in the film that much. But they have really good on screen chemistry. And I also just really liked the way that that relationship is written. I think it's very clever.

Alex Heeney

And her brother has this great line where he says, of course you want to hang out with Adele. Everybody wants to hang out with Adele. Why do you think I'm in court all the time?

Unknown Speaker

That's a great moment. And I think of course, the scene in the spring section of the film because it's separated into seasons. And in the spring section, the Chelsea Peretti Gabby character is sort of coming into her own. And she finally meets someone in a very meek, cute type way.

Alex Heeney

That's the final section.

Lindsay Pugh

Was it? I don't know. Cuz I think I think summer is the final one where then she like, opens the restaurant and turns 40 right. I think so. But that scene is just an all time favorite. Maybe it's it's just beautiful. Lovely.

Alex Heeney

Yeah, it's so good.

Orla Smith

Yeah, I saw the film back in summer last year. And

Alex Heeney

It's thanks to you that we've all seen it,

Orla Smith

I got the press release. And I was like I've heard of Andrea Dorfman. I've heard good things about her work and she's Canadian and we you know, support Canadian cinema. So it's mainly the reason the reason that I that I like asked for screener and watched it was because because I had heard of her that hadn't seen any of her films and like vaguely knew who Chelsea Peretti was, but I hadn't really seen much of her comedy and ended up being like so surprised by it and it really grew on me even like after watching it and , I found it like so great as like an anti rom com as well, in the sense that it gave me like, all the like warm, fuzzy vibes that I love about rom coms, but it had none of the bad like gender politics. And that was like I mean, I interviewed Andrea Dorfman about the film. And she said that was sort of like her and her co writers conception, from there. I think she and her co writer like conceived the story. Her co writer wrote the script, and then she directed it, but that was always part of their conception, like the idea of like, we love rom coms, but we don't always love what they say about like women and like singledom being bad. And so the film starts with Gabby, like looking for the typical rom com thing and ends with her deciding that she doesn't want that. And yet the film is still super colorful, it still has like a gorgeous like rom com-y score. It still has like a beautiful like shots and, like lovely imagery that you'd like want in a rom com that's still like a cozy film. And so I think that it really like you know, it hit the spot for me that I say it's one of the best rom coms in recent years, despite not really technically being a rom com.

Alex Heeney

Yeah, I think one of the interesting things about the film that I feel like the first time I saw it, I just kind of sank right into it, because it's just such a warm, wonderful world to be in. And when I was rewatching again, I was really interested in so like the beginning of the film, she thinks she's looking for a boyfriend. And almost structurally, it's a lot like it reminded me a lot of the film Kissing Jessica Stein, just like she goes on all these horrible dates. And so in Kissing Jessica Stein, she decides to give up on men and start dating women. And in Spinster, she just decides to give up on dating and start prioritizing herself and what she wants. But there's like some real similarities structurally to that between them. And then what's interesting is the first half of the film or so it's a lot of close ups and shot reverse shots where she's almost never in the frame with anybody else. So ironically, like even though her obsession at the beginning is to seek a romantic connection, she's not really connecting with anybody. And then it's not until the second half of the film where we start seeing her in two shots, you know, with her best friend when they have that sleep over toward the end. And then the meet cute she has that this guy is out on the landscape. And there is a lot of two shots with them. And sometimes they're wide shots with the two of them in the frame. And you start to see her you know, into shots with her brother and with her father and you see them her connecting with people in a way that she just wasn't when she was obsessing over this kind of intangible idea of finding a romantic partner.

Orla Smith

I mean, the first scene is literally her in her catering job talking to a potential client who's like describing this like fairytale romance that she had. And Gabby is like not having it at all. And it's very much shot and like shot reverse shot and they're just like in completely different worlds, which is like he said a contrast from where she is at the end where she feels like a togetherness with people

Alex Heeney

Well in that scene to at the her friend's party that she kind of crashes and it's a couple's party and they start telling her oh, you're you're gonna want to settle down. There's all these two shots of the couples and then there's Gabby on her own. And that scene feels like right out of Bridget Jones's Diary where they're like, why aren't you married? And there's a somewhat similar take down except she of course doesn't have Mark Darcy to come to her rescue. She just has to be like, well, you know, actually there are reasons to be single.

Unknown Speaker

I wanted to ask you both what you thought about the conversations that specifically revolved around other people questioning her life decisions like at the beginning, there's, she shows up at her best friend's house and she's having like a clothing swap or something. And then later there's that dinner scene. What do you think about the dialogue in the way that it's portrayed in those scenes? Like, does it feel realistic to you? Does it feel exaggerated?

Alex Heeney

I mean, it's maybe a little bit exaggerated. I feel like it's kind of both, you know, like, it's maybe a bit exaggerated. But it's also not that exaggerated.

Orla Smith

I mean, there are different levels to it as well, like, there's the guy at the party, that the dinner party who is like, incredibly brash about it in a way that like, I mean, there aren't too many people who will just like, come out and say that boldly, but also like, it feels very realistic to the way that it does feel realistic to the way that people think and the way that people make single people feel with the way that they interact with them. So it felt like and there is a certain heightened nature to the film, so it didn't feel out of place in the film they feel and yeah, it's contrasted against like, Gabby's best friend, who I feel like isn't exactly like pressuring Gabby. In the same way, although like, the fact that she has the life that she is still feels like a pressure to Gabby, because she's like, in the eyes of the world, my friend is like a more advanced human than I am. But then by the end of the film, they sort of learned to make time for each other.

Unknown Speaker

Yeah when I first saw it, I kind of thought, like, oh, is this dialogue maybe a little sloppy? Because it's so on the nose. But then when I watched it again, I was like, well, it does actually feel exactly like that when someone is hitting you with that type of criticism. It's almost like the dialogue more portrays how it would feel to Gabby than maybe realistically, like what someone would say.

Alex Heeney

Yeah, that's very well put

Orla Smith

I think that's why the film sort of like grew on me bore is because in the moment, I think it took me a while to sort of like settle into its tone, because it is slightly heightened. And it is of like, a very much like puts you into like a heightened colourful world. And I think especially on rewatch this film played, like wonderfully for me on rewatch, because I was sort of like more accepting of that tone. And I think even Chelsea Peretti is like a bit of a heightened comic performer, like her deadpan is like, very deadpan, and you just have to go with that.

Alex Heeney

Part of what's interesting about that scene too, is that because it feels sort of heightened, she has to sort of give this big defense of her choices and the fact that it is a choice. And she's never had to articulate that before. And she kind of says, no, it's bullshit, but unlike being attacked, but then you start to see her making these subtle changes in her life. Like at the beginning, when her boyfriend leaves her, we find out it's his apartment. And so she's suddenly without furniture, he's moving out, because he just like, can't stand her anymore. So he leaves her the apartment, and you realize that, like Gabby has kind of been avoiding becoming herself that she's been trying to stay malleable so that if she meets somebody she can fit into his life, rather than, you know, find somebody with whom she can be partnered. Because at one point, somebody says, Well, if you want to get a dog, get a dog, and she's like, well, but what if I meet my soulmate, and he's allergic to dogs? And it's like, that's not a good reason not to get a dog.

Orla Smith

And also he can take allergy pills

Alex Heeney

maybe he's not your soulmate, if he doesn't, if he's allergic to dogs. I mean, who knows? Yeah. And so then I think what's really smart that we see in these, like subtle changes in the production design is her apartment starts to gather furniture, and she puts up like photos and decorates it

Orla Smith

and she gets a dose

Alex Heeney

And she gets a dog. And she's been avoiding building a life for herself because she's been waiting for some guy. And I think after she has to bounce this defense for her choices, she decided to make it a choice. And she starts to build up her life and to work on her relationships, because then she has this conversation with her best friend, where she's like, her best friend tells her like, you know, I was at home and lonely and you're off with some guy. And she tells her friend that she thought, well, maybe you don't want to be friends with me anymore, because all your friends are couples with children. And we realize that they just haven't been communicating well and haven't necessarily been getting what they want or needed or their relationship, but they're both very committed to each other and to being friends and we start to see them finding a space for each other.

Orla Smith

I mean, what's really impressive about the film, which is something that Andrea Dorfman told me about is the way that the film really balances well all these different relationships that she has and these different facets of her life. She has a relationship with her father and her brother and her niece and her best friend, her neighbor who's great, and so there's all these different threads and Andrea Dorfman sort of said like all these relationships needed to hit rock bottom in the film for her to kind of get to a place where she realized that she needed to like change something about her life even just mentally shift her priorities and the film handles that sort of like crumbling and then reassembling of her life through like all these different threads so well, you really feel like Gabby is a full person because you understand like, and I feel like we so rarely see like films are often like even character studies are often about just like one thing about that character. And because the film is, you know, short you need to like boil a person down to just a few elements, whereas Spinster feels like the rare film where this character is allowed to have like all these different things going on. And the film isn't necessarily just about one of them. Like I couldn't tell you like, which was the key thread of those threads, she just really feels like a full purson because she has so many threads.

Alex Heeney

Yeah, I mean, like, I remember one of the podcasts, Brett was talking about how sometimes people's lives shrink as they get older, like they, you know, it becomes about your partner and your children and you don't have time for I can't remember what it was. But anyway, I feel like that kind of applies here. Because part of what happens is she had shrunk her expectations almost to I'm just going to find a partner. And a that's hard to do because at a certain age, you know, men are all partnered off because well anyway, we could get into a whole thing about how heterosexual relationships are a lot easier and better for men and are a lot more likely to cause problems for women. But so so it becomes that, like, if she's gonna replace this romantic, heterosexual relationship in her life with something and especially if it's gonna, she's gonna replace it with, like, you know, other people who are not necessarily everything about their lives is dedicated to her life than it has to be a wider net. And so she ends up with these rich relationships with a lot of people who are all extremely important to her and vice versa. But like, you know, she's not the number one priority in her best friend's life. She might be like the number two or number three priority, but obviously her best friend's priority is like her children. And she because she has this budding friendship with the woman who lives upstairs, who is I don't know, in her 60s maybe and is a single field biologist, and has sort of figured out how to do the spinster life and is

Unknown Speaker

She's like friends with all students, has parties at her place with them.

Alex Heeney

And she goes on adventures, and she has a fulfilling career. And she likes children. And she ends up liking, you know, she hangs out with Adele with her, but she's not, you know, she has, it's not like when Gabby disappears, she has no life or that, like her life revolves around Gabby, and what they've done is just, you know, found an intense relationship instead of, you know, a romantic one. And so part of finding a fulfilling life is to have a whole smattering of different relationships and having a dog.

Orla Smith

And she has a conversation with the woman upstairs about like, how she ended up sort of like not having kids and not being in a relationship. And it's not that like she's like, and then there was a point where I decided, no, that's not gonna happen, I'm not gonna she was like, it just never panned out. And, you know, I had other priorities and like, yeah, maybe it would have been nice. But also what I'm doing now is nice. And it's not like that with Gabby either. Like, she's not, she hasn't decided at the end of the film, that she doesn't want a relationship. And she didn't say that she like will never have kids, she sort of decides that, like, she's not going to actively seek that out. And she's going to prioritize her career over and like her platonic relationships over, like seeking those things. And if she finds those things that she finds like a guy that she likes at hiking at the end of the film, if he lives in the other side of the country, she's just gonna let it go. Because it's more important to like live the life that she's built for herself here then seek a romantic relationship. It's not that she's made any like definitive decision about what she will like ever do for the rest of her life at the end of the film, but she's realigned her priorities.

Alex Heeney

Yeah, I mean, I think she's not going to destroy her, I mean not destroy, but she's not going to up end. That's the right word, her life for a romantic relationship. And, you know, having to deal with long distance and fly across country that would up end her life, and she's happy with her life. So and if she, you know, met somebody now, if you wouldn't just like, go move in with him and ignore all her friends, you know, in the way that the old Gabby might have.

Unknown Speaker

One other thing I liked about like her relationships and how they built them was what they did with the relationship with her dad. It wasn't a huge part. But there was one scene that I really liked where she was telling her brother about how it really messed her up when their dad left them and built another family with someone else and her brother just tells her offhandedly like, you gotta let that go. Yeah, and it sort of seems like she does that by the end of the film. She sort of lets some of the things go and just embraces people's new behavior and then that last scene where she turns 40 she's wearing the cardigan that her dad gets her for her 39th birthday. And there's a whole thing about the cardigan, where Gabby thinks that his new wife picked it out. And he tells her no, I actually picked it out. And she's, you know, kind of dismissive of it, but it's just, it's just again, not such a nice sign of growth for her as a character, not just related to her romantic relationships or desire for them, but all of her relationships with other people

Orla Smith

I hadn't noticed it was the same cardigan at the end, but that is like really lovely.

Lindsay Pugh

Yeah, I noticed it like the second time I watched it, I was like, hey, that's the cardigan.

Orla Smith

And I really love the the scen at because the she does have like a series of scenes at the end sort of like wrapping up these relationships. And I love the scene with her best friend, where they just like have a night in together and like she makes like nice ginger beer.

Alex Heeney

In a two shot

Orla Smith

And it was just so lovely to see sort of, like, you know, especially like one of them being a married woman and then a single friend just like to carving out time for themselves just to be friends. You know, like decades into a friendship. It was just sort of like a lovely little moment that wasn't really like about like moving the plot forward, but just like enjoying their friendship.

Alex Heeney

Well, especially because at the beginning, there's a and they have a conversation about this, the fact that Gabby's constantly conforming to her friends life. And I think that's also partly something that Andrea talked about on our motherhood and horror episode

Orla Smith

Not Andrea Dorfman. Andrea Subissati

Alex Heeney

Yes. That like if you are childless, your time is considered less important. And I mean, she was talking about people, women who were working mothers, but I think it's a similar thing here is it's like, well, Gabby doesn't have responsibilities, like children. So she should be able to go spend, go do whatever her friend needs to do. And so if that means hanging out at her house, while she does laundry, or while she drives her kids around that sort of an expectation. And then the lovely thing that ends up happening for them is that as you say, they decide to carve out time for each other. And it makes them both happier, because her friend is like, I just want to have a long conversation that's uninterrupted. And they are they both in missing time with each other and are now both able to prioritize it. And I imagine that part of the reason that they weren't doing that before is because of some of these societal expectations and conventions about you know, motherhood trumping everything else.

Orla Smith

But I also like the film isn't like judgmental of the fact that her friend is like a full time mother. Like she she's sort of like we we follow Gabby's journey to be okay with the fact that that's not what she wants. But also, like, the friend is, like, very, like happy and comfortable with like her life. And, you know, I think the film isn't like prescriptive about like, what happiness means it just is sort of advocating for the idea that you should listen to yourself when like trying to work out what that means for you.

Unknown Speaker

Yeah, I think there's like too much, what happens too often in media is like, when a child free woman is being portrayed, there's some slights that are taken against mothers, you know, there's always like this pitting against each other of these different types in this film doesn't do that at all. And definitely explores how it's important for both of them to have friendship in their life. It's not just a thing for single people, it's a thing that everyone wants.

Orla Smith

And she also like, has has like, really healthy, lovely relationships with a child who she like, helps to raise in her own small way with her niece. And you know, she's like, good with kids. And I'm sure she would be a good mother, but it's just not like something that she's like, super eager to be.

Alex Heeney

Yeah, and that scene where Gabby has to defend herself. There's also an attack made on her friend for being a stay at home mom. And there's a strong defense of that as well that she doesn't have to put up herself that it's her husband in front of her like you're being an asshole. And this is patriarchal bullshit. And I was gonna say something about boundaries. Yeah, I think what's what's interesting is that, like, Gabby doesn't really have proper boundaries in most of her life, especially in the way that she's like, sort of desperately searching after men by like, she goes to the chiropractor's office. And then afterwards, she asks the receptionist is he single before she booked her appointment?

Orla Smith

Isn't the receptionist his wife?

Alex Heeney

Yes. But then on the other hand, she's actually I mean, her relationship with her father needs work, but she is actually pretty good at boundaries with him. Like when he decides he wants to give her money to do something with because she's not going to spend his money on a wedding and he hands her $25,000 and she says her wedding was at least 40 grand. And then he's like, yeah, but you know her she got discounts on things and she's like, you mean like catering from my company, and then her father's like, oh, right. Good point and so then he comes back and gives her the correct amount which like, I don't think that's an easy thing to do to push back like that. Even if she is really angry at her dad, I think that's still a tough thing to do. And she advocate and then she teaches her niece, adults also advocate for herself to not just be pliable to other people's wants, when she, you know, tells you you don't have to go climbing, you could have told me that and then at the yarn store, where she deliberately picks an ugly yarn, so that to force the niece to say she doesn't like it and to pick something that she does like. And then we see that coming to fruition when Gabby and her brothers aren't to argue about whether or not Gabby is going to still get time with Adele. And Adele comes in it's as well don't I get a say, I want time with Gabby.

Orla Smith

I mean, I was thinking, should we start to move into like other comparisons? Like it could be interesting to talk about, like the fact that both both characters have relationships with younger people in the film. And even though they are childless, and they're not portrayed as like, being desperate to have a child, it's not even something that Radha even really like, grapples with. Yeah, Spinster is like about Gabby grappling with whether she wants a relationship and kids. And I mean, another thing I like about the 40 Year Old Version is that like, the film being centered more on like her career, she's sort of like, not even questioning whether like, Yeah, she should be in a relationship. And she ends up in like, a casual relationship. And it's not really like a big deal, whether that's gonna like last ages or not, or whatever. It's just like, you know, they like each other, for now at least.

Alex Heeney

And he has a young tongue.

Orla Smith

But yeah, but both of them have these relationships with younger people who develop that develop throughout the film. And so Radha is a teacher, and she has a class of kids who like really look up to her in a way that's like, incredibly sweet in the film. And she sees it at least at the beginning of the film as a kind of like, failure that she's like, 39. And she's like, still teaching kids as a way to make money. But I think come to some kind of realization that, hey, kids actually like her, like, really, like care about her. And, you know, maybe that is a fulfilling thing to be doing. And in Spinster, we have this relationship with her niece, Adele

Alex Heeney

Who she didn't want to babysit in the first place.

Orla Smith

Yeah, but that ends up being like really fulfilling for both of them. Even though like, yeah, like motherhood isn't something that she necessarily wants. But she can still, that doesn't mean she can't have a nurturing relationship with like a younger person. And both characters also come to realize that actually, maybe despite what they perceive as their own failings, they can be a role model for younger people.

Alex Heeney

And I can I mean, in Spinster, it also connects her to her brother and to her father and helps her find family in place that she kind of assumed was not there for her and like, not that her family is perfect or anything, but she does get some support from them, you know, they're all there for her opening. And I'm not sure that would have been the case, at the beginning of the film,

Lindsay Pugh

I think maybe goes back to the carving out a niche for yourself, and figuring out where you can be useful and where you can find fulfillment. And maybe those two places are not places that they would necessarily think of, but they end up opening themselves up to it and getting things back in return. So just showing that, you know, when you're going outside of your comfort zone and doing things as they happen and not necessarily trying to make something specific happen, you can stumble upon relationships that end up becoming very fulfilling.

Alex Heeney

I feel like we need to talk about some of the aesthetic choices here and the the formal choices, because I mean, obviously these films are doing really innovative things with stories. So it's easy to focus on that but I think it's worth thinking about how they do it.

Orla Smith

They have both have like very bold and specific but very different aesthetic approach is to like as I said in Spinster it kind of plays with romcom ideas and also Andrea Dorfman like what I've gathered from her other work she's an animator as well she likes colour the film is very colourful I think a lot of her films are very colourful.

Alex Heeney

And the opening credits have animation.

Orla Smith

Yeah, and then also like the opening shot the film is it's like beautiful magic hour sunset. It's like a it's like a fantasy scene. And it like it does like look and feel like a rom com to me and how cozy it is and like the colors really really pop we might already have on the site depending on my workflow, an interview with Stephanie Anne Weber Biron who is the cinematographer she was just nominated for a Canadian Screen Award for her work on Nadia Butterfly, which is also a very kind of like a film with lots of rich colors and it has like technical feats to it that made it like more nominatible than Spinster for an award but also I think like her work on Spinster iss like equally beautiful looking. She's just like really great. And she works with Andrea Dorfman a lot.

Alex Heeney

It's very subtle her work. I think you could watch Spinster and just be like, oh, is there cinematography.

Orla Smith

But it is like a very beautiful and

Alex Heeney

And really captures faces and the space between people.

Orla Smith

Yeah. And I also like these like, very well edited scenes as well, where there's kind of like the fantasy versus reality. Like there's a scene where she's like, like playing sports and like, just like watching this guy. And and it like the camera is very desireful, let's say and then there's like, there's like sexy music. And then that we edit straight to like the reality version of the scene where like, everyone's mad at her that she's not playing the game.

Alex Heeney

The ball lands literally next to her. The guy she was fantasizing about has to run an get it because she was too busy drooling over him.

Orla Smith

Yeah, I mean, it just looks like a lovely. It's just like a very, like lovely world to live in,

Alex Heeney

where she wears all these bright colors like pink and orange and yellow. And then her apartment has yellow walls. And her restaurant has green walls. And Adele wears like pink. Like it's just like bright colors.

Orla Smith

And Halifax is beautiful.

Alex Heeney

Yes. It is really beautiful.

Orla Smith

Yeah, it's not not a shabby place to shoot a movie. Whereas, like, 40 Year Old Version is very different aesthetically. It's shot in black and white. And it's sort of more, like I can't remember exactly, is it like more like handheld?

Alex Heeney

Yeah

Orla Smith

And there's sort of mix and matching styles like there are these sort of like faux interview segments that are shot in four by three. And then there's like the rest of the stuff. And it's it's much and the pace of the film is a lot more rapid as well, I should say is a very languid film, the Forty Year Old Version.

Alex Heeney

I guess they don't necessarily disagree with you. But I think 40 Year Old Version is clunky. And I think Spinster is like there's not a moment that is unnecessary. And it's very, very smooth. But I mean, that's probably the difference between a seasoned filmmaker and a first feature like, I'm not I don't fault it for that. I just think

Orla Smith

Also I think that there's a difference. I mean, the films also very much feel like the places that they're set.

Alex Heeney

That's true. Yeah.

Orla Smith

like the 40 Year Old Version, you might call it clunky. And that's fair. like you'd expect that from a first feature that's doing like so much. And so like, you know, and not something that I was disappointed in it but maybe true, but but it is a very sort of like frenetic film there's like, you feel the fact that it's balancing a lot more than you feel it in Spinster? Like again, that's because like, is it a less seasoned filmmaker, but also because like, it feels like the energy of New York, which is like a very like cramped, bustling place. And her life is moving like at a faster pace than Gabby's, who lives in this place of beautiful, like, you know, less cramped place than that's like by the sea and by like mountains. And, and also like I was an interesting point that the Google Doc about like the the idea of like, what's the difference between these stories and how white privilege plays into that. And it also is, I think that the location differences is telling that, like, we said they had that like 40 Year Old Version is more about career choices and struggles, whereas Spinster is more about personal relationships. And I think the Gabby's life is running at a slower pace, the film is running at a slow pace, because she doesn't have as much to like worry about, like, you know, where her next meal is coming from how she's paying the rent, she's a relatively well off character. And so the film sort of grants her financial stability, and she sort of like has this ability to get this big sum of money from her dad. And it means that it's more about like, What is she choosing? And how is she choosing it? And it's not about like, how is she surviving because she's able to survive and she has her business. Whereas with Radha living in New York, it's about the film, the film runs at a faster pace, because she's sort of like, you know, she's got a lot more to kind of actively, like worry about about, like, how she's like keeping up her lifestyle and how she's paying the bills.

Alex Heeney

I mean, they both are struggling with how they see themselves, and how that fits with, you know, how they're seen by others. But with Gabby, there's never a sense that anything she wants, she couldn't have like, okay, there might not be a man she likes on the market, but basically anything else that she wants, she can have, can she get her Can she afford to like buy furniture in her apartment? Yes. If she wants to open the business, does she have any problems? Does she face sexism does she like she doesn't really face any external issues, whereas Radha has like a ton of stuff that she's dealing with, like, as you say, how do I pay rent and then the industry that she's in in being sexist and racist. And you know, even if I get my place put out, am I gonna get money from it like, as you said, Gabby just gets gifted this huge chunk of money, and now she can have her dream. Nobody is sitting around trying to give Radha money to produce her Broadway show the way she wants to.

Orla Smith

I mean, I think both films are about like, who am I? But also The 40 Year Old Version is also about like, how do I reconcile who I am with the world that won't like, exactly. Let me have that in the way that I want.

Alex Heeney

Yeah. And I mean, I don't want to downplay the fact. I mean, I do think that those narratives we have about marriage, the marriage story, and then the necessity of having children are really strong, but and they're hard to battle. But I think but you know, you compare that to, okay, but you can make that choice, right? Like you have to battle against how people feel about you. But nobody's going to stop you from not having children, and not getting married, whereas Radha does not have that luxury.

Lindsay Pugh

Yeah, the stakes are just higher for Radha. Because if she makes a career choice to blow up her Broadway play, then that could be it for her career as a playwright as a whole. But you get the sense that, you know, if Gabby's restaurant fails, or something, it'll be fine, you know, and you don't get the sense that she'll never have any other opportunities because of her situation. So

Alex Heeney

and she won't be out on the street either, like she'll right, she'll be fine.

Unknown Speaker

Radha is dealing with more shit than Gabby is. And as a result, her story is a little bit more critical. And Gabby's is a little bit more languid.

Alex Heeney

And I mean, I wonder if that's part of like the clunkiness is that there is no smooth path for Radha. Whereas it is pretty smooth for Gabby once she decides once she makes the decision, it's pretty smooth.

Orla Smith

Yeah, because once he makes that decision, she's able to act out that decision. Yeah. What do you guys think of the black and white aesthetic of the 40 Year Old Version?

Alex Heeney

Do we know why she chose that?

Orla Smith

I think she has spoken about it. I think it was I don't want to misquote or anything. But it was something about like, wanting to sort of like emulate the kinds of New York character studies that she's watched. And like before that were in black and white, but also like, didn't center like Black woman and saying, like, we can have this kind of narrative told with this aesthetic to it was sort of something to do with her influences. But I'm not exactly sure.

Alex Heeney

She is this like her Francis Ha?

Orla Smith

I'm not sure if that was exactly their reference point that Yeah, I didn't know. I mean, I don't have much to say about the aesthetic. I think it works with the tone of the story, though.

Unknown Speaker

In my mind, it's a little bit like imagine Woody Allen's Manhattan, but the protagonist is actually interesting. And the film has something to say

Alex Heeney

And is not creepy

Orla Smith

And if the Woody Allen character was in this film, the film would be making would be he would be like in the Jay Whitman role.

Unknown Speaker

Yes, absolutely. But it does, it does give it a classic look. And then I do like at the end, how it subtly turns to colour after she's sort of gotten to a place of not figuring things out, but asserting herself in the way that she needs to and you know, they're walking down the street, her and Dee and she's eating funyuns. And you slowly see some some colors seep in. It's nice.

Orla Smith

Yeah. And it gives it kind of a classic feel like she was just like, I want this to be, you know, amongst like, the classic New York films, and she does shoot the city with a lot of love as well.

Alex Heeney

I mean, yeah, I think the sort of the key difference almost is that 40 Year Old Version really draws attention to its aesthetic. And I think Spinster does the opposite.

Orla Smith

You mean just like by virtue of being in black and white,

Alex Heeney

That's part of it, but also the fact that she has these sort of interviews with people on the street. And then you have these sort of fantasy sequences of when she's describing her play. You see these actors who are like, as though they are part of her play

Orla Smith

It definitely, like, makes more like bold, specific choices, in terms of style that like more overt than Spinster's

Alex Heeney

I mean, as soon as you put something in black and white, right, it's already like, Well, why did you make this movie and black and white, we know that it's becoming a lot more common now.

Orla Smith

Especially at Sundance.

Alex Heeney

And then to add these other, she adds these other sort of meta theatrical ideas to it that it makes you go, oh, she's playing with the form, whereas I don't think you could watch spinster and be like, yeah, it's just like a movie.

Orla Smith

Yeah, I mean, I think it's also like, the kind of film that the 40 Year Old Version is, like we said, it's juggling so much. And if it's not entertaining, you're really going to feel the clunkiness of like, all the things it's juggling, so it needs to like inject as much energy into it as possible. And I feel like those sort of like stylized sections are her way of like buoying the film with energy. Because it's a film that if it's going to work is going to need like a lot of energy.

Alex Heeney

Yeah, I mean, I don't disagree. I also I think that it's, I think the 40 Year Old Version is about the way that the world doesn't make space for Radha. And it has no interest in it. And so the boldness of the aesthetic is also a way of saying of declaring that space for her that you know, Broadway or whatever is not going to do and being like, you know, a woman. I mean, the thing we haven't talked about is not only is she like a Black woman, but she's like a fat Black woman who, you know, who is not like a supermodel look, you know, she's not Halle Berry. She looks like a normal person. And Chelsea Peretti too is somebody like I would not say either of them are unattractive or anything. I just they don't look like supermodels. They look like regular humans, which is also something you don't see a lot of, especially with women leading films.

Orla Smith

But also like, especially with Radha is still portrayed as like very sexual and with a lot of sexual desire.

Alex Heeney

Yeah, exactly.

Orla Smith

In fact, her relationship in the film is much more about sort of sexual desires than necessarily like I want to, like, be your life partner forever.

Alex Heeney

Why and also, like, people, lots of people are hating on Radha either, even though she's not presenting herself in a way that's like, you know, she's not wearing lots of makeup, or she she covers her hair until midway through and she's like, yeah, I don't know why I cover my hair.

Orla Smith

Yeah, I really like the opening when she is like her, like neighbors are having sex next door. And sort of like the stereotypical idea of that scene is like, you know, she like knocks on the door. And it's like, like, be quiet and trying to sleep, but she just like starts masturbating. And she's like, just like I don't know, like, it's an instantly sort of subversive sort of image at the beginning of the film that tells us like, oh, yeah, you might like have preconceived notions that this character isn't going to like be sexually desired and like, have sexual desire. But that's absolutely not the case.

Alex Heeney

Yeah

Unknown Speaker

Yeah, it is pretty unusual to have women approaching 40, who, you know, haven't put a bunch of fillers in their face, or whatever people in Hollywood are doing represented in film, it's just my women are told they have to look a certain way in order to be desirable in both of these films, just by casting the protagonists that they did have subverted that. It makes me pretty sad. Like just those just the casting choices are subversive, in that they don't look like how you would expect for someone in a film who is an actor.

Alex Heeney

Despite looking like good. You know, like, they've hardly gone and been like, can we find the most like somebody who we just cannot stand to look at like that is not who these women are?

Unknown Speaker

No, they're both beautiful. And the films make them look, the films highlight their beauty, we have beautiful scenes of Radha's face when she's at the queen of the ring rap battle, and we have beautiful shots of Chelsea Peretti. I think especially in that hiking scene, I think she just looks beautiful, and she's wearing like a puffer jacket, and, you know, boots or whatever, nothing special, but they highlight the beauty of these women.

Alex Heeney

Yeah, they do. And they don't do it with the requirement of them conforming to beauty standards. Like it's not like they put on little black dresses, or tons of makeup. And so we're like, oh, they're beautiful. Now, it's like, No, these are beautiful women always. And like how great that in a hiking scene is when you know, she looks her best.

Orla Smith

Yeah, like wearing like very warm clothing

Alex Heeney

Comfy, practical clothing.

Orla Smith

I could be like, Oh, she's beautiful. And also I want her wardrobe and would practically wear

Alex Heeney

Yes.

Lindsay Pugh

Yeah. And I think to like the assertiveness of both characters is what makes them attractive as well. Like I love the in the hiking scene, it's Gabby who initiates the kiss. She, they're having a really nice moment. And she says, like, I think we should just kiss a little bit, and then they do and it's awesome.

Alex Heeney

Yeah, it's true. Because I think that's actually like, a lot more common in life than you see it portrayed in movies.

Orla Smith

Yeah, like it's really a romantic scene, but not in like the stereotypical way. Like they're just acknowledging the fact that they like want to kiss and then they do it. But it's like, really sweet because they're communicating.

Unknown Speaker

Yeah, I think that's the thing with film, there are these unspoken rules that so many people follow. And these films are both interesting, because they don't do that. And hey, what if more people just didn't do that? It would be amazing.

Orla Smith

Yeah, I think a lot of films are inspired by other films, rather than being inspired by real life. And it's what happens when you have a filmmaker who only went to film school and only talks to people who make films or like films and doesn't do other life things.

Lindsay Pugh

Mm hmm.

Unknown Speaker

All right. Well, I think that's the end of our discussion of the 40 Year Old Version and spinster. Next week on the podcast, we're having Lindsay back So we're talking about two fiction films by Chantal Akerman. One is Jeanne Dielman, 23, quai du Commerce, Now I'm going to switch to English, 1080 Bruxelles and the other is Les Rendez-vous d'Anna

Unknown Speaker

And so we wanted to do these films because we're thinking for Mother's Day, and who, who has the mother more entrenched in their entire filmography, then Chantal Akerman and these two films are both fiction. And they both deal with relationships between a mother and a child, sort of indirectly. It's not exactly what each of the films are about. But it's an important thread and both, so I thought that it would be interesting to compare those. And also just to talk about Akerman and the mother in her work. And I am currently working on an essay about two of her documentaries that deal with this as well. And so it's something I've been thinking about a lot lately, and I'm very entrenched in Akerman these days

Alex Heeney

and that essay will be in our next book to be announced soon.

Orla Smith

I'm very excited for this episode. I'm very excited to do the prep for the episode as well, I think it will be a great discussion and are they both on the Criterion Channel?

Alex Heeney

Yeah, they are.

Unknown Speaker

So both films on the criterion channel. So you can do that prep, and Jeanne Dielman is over three hours long, but carve out the time and it will be worth it. And yeah, you can catch up with us next week. Having watched them

Unknown Speaker

Where can people find you, Lindsey? Aside from on the podcast next week?

Unknown Speaker

Yeah, obviously you can find me on Seventh Row in certain places. And then also on WomeninRevolt.com and I guess also on Twitter and Instagram @womaninrevolt. I didn't used to have that handle on Twitter. Now I do. And now that makes me think maybe I'll use Twitter. I don't know.

Unknown Speaker

Every episode, you seem to change your mind about whether you're on Twitter. But I welcome you there.

Alex Heeney

My favorite was the first one when she didn't know her handle.

Unknown Speaker

Yeah. Good catch. Yeah, and you can find Lindsay on previous episodes of the podcast. There's too many to name them all. But you've been on episodes about we talked about Justin Triet'ss films, we talked about our episode on abortion and film, which featured St. Francis and Never Rarely Sometimes Always. And I know you've been on a bunch. I can't remember them all right now.

Lindsay Pugh

I know I'm blanking you would think I'd be able to remember more of them, but

Alex Heeney

Our extremely popular Promising Young Woman episodes.

Unknown Speaker

Oh, yeah, actually, Yeah, go ahead. That was the one you were on first.this year, when we compared Promising Young Woman to The Assistant and talked about rape culture in both films. And as a warning, it was very good episode, I think that we didn't really like Promising Young Women and we like the Assistant. So you might want to know that go again. If you're a fan of one are not a fan of the other. And yet, but I recommend you listen to that one, especially as the Oscars will have happened by the time we release this episode, right? Yeah, possibly. It's won some Oscars? Possibly not.

Alex Heeney

On that happy note, where can people find you Orla?

Orla Smith

You can find me @orlamango on Twitter, you can find my writing on Seventh Row. And I've tried to incorporate into my sign off that I write other places too. The Film Stage sometimes and then like a bunch of other places, which you can find out at all the smith.com because I have a fancy website with my name on it. And yeah, I'm on this podcast pretty much every week. So see you next week.

Unknown Speaker

I'm Alex you can find me on Twitter @bwestcineaste and on seventh row and you can find all of us on seventh-row.com. On social media @seventhrow on twitter and instagram and we'd love to hear from you please rate and review the podcast please send us your thoughts on the episode. can do that in the review. If you have longer thoughts you want to send us shoot us an email at contact@seventh-row.com. We would love to hear from you.

Orla Smith

Yeah. And to reiterate, we will read any reviews at the beginning of the episode. And we love getting them we had one last week and it was amazing. Because we love getting reviews and we don't get them so often. But actually the last couple of weeks we've been on a streak and we've gotten like around a review week. And I am like really, really hoping we can keep up that streak. So if you leave a review, then you could help us do that.

Unknown Speaker

And I guess if you want to continue exploring spinster, you can read Orla's interview with Andrea Dorfman on the site. And you can also read Orla's review of the 40 Year Lld Version. links to both of those in the show notes.

Orla Smith

And you can possibly probably by the time this podcast is out read my review with Stephanie Anne Weber Biron, the cinematographer of Spinster and Nadia butterfly. She's also worked on like Xavier Dolan's early films like Heartbeats. She worked and she was also confused by this that she worked on Xavier Delon's Heartbeats and Andrea Dorfman's Heartbeats, and she couldn't remember which one was which. Cause she struggled to remember and she's she's shot a bunch of Andrea Dorfman's films and she's just like really great. And she talked a lot about like having shot many films in Halifax and getting like a reputation there too. She's lovely to talk to and nominated for a Canadian Screen Award very deservedly . Her third one

Seventh Row

So funny you call it Hali-fax. Is that what you call it in the same place in Britain? Well, here it's Halifax.

Orla Smith

I'm not hearing a significant difference between that pronunciation Alex.

Alex Heeney

It's a eh versus e. So you say Hally-facts like h a l l y facts? And I say like hal-if-facts?

Orla Smith

Yeah, I mean, Halifax is what I would call the place here.

Alex Heeney

Interesting.

Orla Smith

I mean, possibly, that's just like an accent differences.

Alex Heeney

Yeah, I couldn't be that's why I'm that's why I pointed it out.

Orla Smith

Thank you Alex.

Alex Heeney

Obviously, we got the term from your country.

Seventh Row

So Lindsey, how would you say it? Let's like be the deciding vote here?

Lindsay Pugh

I would say

Alex Heeney

Why does the American get to decide?

Unknown Speaker

Yeah, that's not maybe a good precedent to set. I would say Hal-if-fax.

Alex Heeney

Okay, maybe it's North American thing. I think that's that's all of our announcements and things. Thank you for listening.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai